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	<title>Comments on: Disestablishing School</title>
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	<link>http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/2009/02/22/disestablishing-school/</link>
	<description>I said it and I'm glad</description>
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		<title>By: Blogosaurus</title>
		<link>http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/2009/02/22/disestablishing-school/comment-page-1/#comment-11524</link>
		<dc:creator>Blogosaurus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 21:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/?p=1149#comment-11524</guid>
		<description>I find myself in the curious position of agreeing with you.  Well said. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find myself in the curious position of agreeing with you.  Well said. <img src='http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Incognito</title>
		<link>http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/2009/02/22/disestablishing-school/comment-page-1/#comment-11523</link>
		<dc:creator>Incognito</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/?p=1149#comment-11523</guid>
		<description>Vex,

You&#039;ve touched on the key point with comments re: atheism and veganism.  Which ethics do we teach?  The present system seems to be predicated on a culture of deceit.  There is a vast diversity of ethical systems in Canada, mostly whitewashed in school with a patronizing nod to some sort of inclusive educational philosophy.  The mean kids might not call the FAS kid a &quot;retard&quot; in front of the teachers, but they certainly will mutter it under their breath, have a good laugh, and exclude him from every meaningful social interaction that isn&#039;t mandated.  People are naturally going to form cliques, and exclude others in a variety of ways.

The speaker made a good point about moral exemplars, and Allan Bloom made it earlier in &quot;Closing of the American Mind&quot;, which is a scathing critique on the educational system.  The school system, at our demand advocates tolerance, of choices, of beliefs, of difference, and ultimately of mediocre.  If anything is tolerated, there is little reason to strive.  You don&#039;t have to earn acceptance, you can demand it.  They will try to legislate it for you, but it will be hollow and worthless.

However even if we had our schools as the impossible paradigm of virtuous education, with virtuous educators, we would still fall short.  Popular media is so pervasive and morally bankrupt, that educating children in virtue is a Sisyphean task.  The goal is not to be virtuous Atticus Finch, but to be 50 Dent, dripping with bling and ho&#039;s, or Paris Hilton partying with rockstars at the hottest clubs.  The cult of celebrity and the anti-hero focus of movies, music and television have more influence in the lives of most children than educators ever will.  The media has their attention nearly every waking moment of their lives.  Parents for the most part, have been lulled into contentment and mortgaged their children for selfish affairs, and &quot;self discovery.&quot;

The only real answer is private and traditional schools that teach what you want your kids to learn, and are much more ready to throw out trouble makers that public schools are forced to deal with.  For public schools, it&#039;s a matter of being a hand on enough parent to equip them to succeed in a far less than ideal academic environment.  Of course some kids will rise to the top based strictly on being intellectually superior, but for averages, private school lets you &quot;pick your paradigm&quot; in a way public institutions do not.

All this goes hand in hand with Parents committing the time to raising their kids, and not letting the media do it.  TV is the easy out.  Reading and discussing with your child takes time and effort.  I credit a great portion of my academic achievements to my Mom&#039;s early effort teaching me to read prior to my enrollment in school, very limited TV growing up, and twice and sometimes thrice trips to the library to restock on new books to read.

You may not have much use for the Bible, but the dangers of idol worship should be evident today, more than ever; American, Canadian, Pop or other.

In short, as a whole we&#039;re mostly doomed, individual students can be saved with parental effort, private schools, and/or luck.

Regards,

~ I.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vex,</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve touched on the key point with comments re: atheism and veganism.  Which ethics do we teach?  The present system seems to be predicated on a culture of deceit.  There is a vast diversity of ethical systems in Canada, mostly whitewashed in school with a patronizing nod to some sort of inclusive educational philosophy.  The mean kids might not call the FAS kid a &#8220;retard&#8221; in front of the teachers, but they certainly will mutter it under their breath, have a good laugh, and exclude him from every meaningful social interaction that isn&#8217;t mandated.  People are naturally going to form cliques, and exclude others in a variety of ways.</p>
<p>The speaker made a good point about moral exemplars, and Allan Bloom made it earlier in &#8220;Closing of the American Mind&#8221;, which is a scathing critique on the educational system.  The school system, at our demand advocates tolerance, of choices, of beliefs, of difference, and ultimately of mediocre.  If anything is tolerated, there is little reason to strive.  You don&#8217;t have to earn acceptance, you can demand it.  They will try to legislate it for you, but it will be hollow and worthless.</p>
<p>However even if we had our schools as the impossible paradigm of virtuous education, with virtuous educators, we would still fall short.  Popular media is so pervasive and morally bankrupt, that educating children in virtue is a Sisyphean task.  The goal is not to be virtuous Atticus Finch, but to be 50 Dent, dripping with bling and ho&#8217;s, or Paris Hilton partying with rockstars at the hottest clubs.  The cult of celebrity and the anti-hero focus of movies, music and television have more influence in the lives of most children than educators ever will.  The media has their attention nearly every waking moment of their lives.  Parents for the most part, have been lulled into contentment and mortgaged their children for selfish affairs, and &#8220;self discovery.&#8221;</p>
<p>The only real answer is private and traditional schools that teach what you want your kids to learn, and are much more ready to throw out trouble makers that public schools are forced to deal with.  For public schools, it&#8217;s a matter of being a hand on enough parent to equip them to succeed in a far less than ideal academic environment.  Of course some kids will rise to the top based strictly on being intellectually superior, but for averages, private school lets you &#8220;pick your paradigm&#8221; in a way public institutions do not.</p>
<p>All this goes hand in hand with Parents committing the time to raising their kids, and not letting the media do it.  TV is the easy out.  Reading and discussing with your child takes time and effort.  I credit a great portion of my academic achievements to my Mom&#8217;s early effort teaching me to read prior to my enrollment in school, very limited TV growing up, and twice and sometimes thrice trips to the library to restock on new books to read.</p>
<p>You may not have much use for the Bible, but the dangers of idol worship should be evident today, more than ever; American, Canadian, Pop or other.</p>
<p>In short, as a whole we&#8217;re mostly doomed, individual students can be saved with parental effort, private schools, and/or luck.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>~ I.</p>
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		<title>By: Blogosaurus</title>
		<link>http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/2009/02/22/disestablishing-school/comment-page-1/#comment-11518</link>
		<dc:creator>Blogosaurus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 05:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/?p=1149#comment-11518</guid>
		<description>Does not play well with others!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does not play well with others!</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/2009/02/22/disestablishing-school/comment-page-1/#comment-11514</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/?p=1149#comment-11514</guid>
		<description>You stay away from my toys! MINE!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You stay away from my toys! MINE!</p>
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		<title>By: Blogosaurus</title>
		<link>http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/2009/02/22/disestablishing-school/comment-page-1/#comment-11511</link>
		<dc:creator>Blogosaurus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Feb 2009 22:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/?p=1149#comment-11511</guid>
		<description>Right.  The question is, does teaching ethics teach ethics?  My sense is that people need to live ethics (that&#039;s the subject of Toren&#039;s linked TED talk too) - you can regulate ethics and turn it into a curriculum, but it&#039;s not at all clear to me that that will actually result in people behaving in a more ethical manner.  Also, do we trust the school system to come up with ethics we endorse or agree with (thinking of my veganism and atheism here)?  

And then there&#039;s the danger of the curriculum standing in place of actual learning (ie, if we teach a workplace course in racial sensitivity that will stop racism at work once and for all!  Clearly false but for a time a major plank in the methods of companies fearing lawsuits related to racist practices.)  Does having a formal ethics course merely relieve us of the responsibility to impart ethics, because we can tell ourselves it&#039;s already being handled?  This goes back to whether ethics can be taught didactically.

On the other hand, it&#039;s something that probably needs to be explicitly talked about, perhaps in the context of doing or reflecting after an event.  I dunno.  

But we can probably all agree it&#039;s vital to share one&#039;s toys.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right.  The question is, does teaching ethics teach ethics?  My sense is that people need to live ethics (that&#8217;s the subject of Toren&#8217;s linked TED talk too) &#8211; you can regulate ethics and turn it into a curriculum, but it&#8217;s not at all clear to me that that will actually result in people behaving in a more ethical manner.  Also, do we trust the school system to come up with ethics we endorse or agree with (thinking of my veganism and atheism here)?  </p>
<p>And then there&#8217;s the danger of the curriculum standing in place of actual learning (ie, if we teach a workplace course in racial sensitivity that will stop racism at work once and for all!  Clearly false but for a time a major plank in the methods of companies fearing lawsuits related to racist practices.)  Does having a formal ethics course merely relieve us of the responsibility to impart ethics, because we can tell ourselves it&#8217;s already being handled?  This goes back to whether ethics can be taught didactically.</p>
<p>On the other hand, it&#8217;s something that probably needs to be explicitly talked about, perhaps in the context of doing or reflecting after an event.  I dunno.  </p>
<p>But we can probably all agree it&#8217;s vital to share one&#8217;s toys.  <img src='http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mel</title>
		<link>http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/2009/02/22/disestablishing-school/comment-page-1/#comment-11507</link>
		<dc:creator>Mel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Feb 2009 21:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.blogosaurusvex.com/?p=1149#comment-11507</guid>
		<description>I was thinking about my business ethics course just the other day, and suddenly realized that I had never studied any ethics in elementary or high school.  Seseme Street and Pokadot Door had things to say on the subject, but it is not part of our formal education when we are young.  Isn&#039;t that crazy!  Like you and I were discussing the other day...although people have varying views on ethics, most people agree on about 99% of things.  Surely that common ground is enough to incorperate ethics into school somehow?  Remember in kindergarten when your report card had less to do with how you scored on tests, and more to do with how you treated your classmates, listened to the teacher, and shared your toys?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was thinking about my business ethics course just the other day, and suddenly realized that I had never studied any ethics in elementary or high school.  Seseme Street and Pokadot Door had things to say on the subject, but it is not part of our formal education when we are young.  Isn&#8217;t that crazy!  Like you and I were discussing the other day&#8230;although people have varying views on ethics, most people agree on about 99% of things.  Surely that common ground is enough to incorperate ethics into school somehow?  Remember in kindergarten when your report card had less to do with how you scored on tests, and more to do with how you treated your classmates, listened to the teacher, and shared your toys?</p>
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